Iran

james909 · Jul 25, 2006

Originally posted by Joe
You and me both

I too share your cynicism of governments, unfortunately I feel I am in the position where I have no other option but to support the state of Israel, I can oppose the actions carried out in the states name - but I could never stand against the state.

However, I also feel it my duty to educate those that blindly oppose Zionism... After this lengthy discourse I'm sure your opposition to Israel has not changed - but at least the next time we enter the debate you will have a more rounded perspective of the Middle East crisis.
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To be honest the middle east its a very complex subject which would take years of study from both persectives to come close to understanding.

I have never blindly opposed zionism just war its the same
demographic of the population who end up dead.

Israel does receive alot U.S. aid though that is one thing that looks true.

Again i not opposed to israel just the killing in its name.

Will read up on the war issue when i have time and post my findings sometime in the future not from a dodgy website this time

Yosef Ha'Kohain · Jul 26, 2006

Originally posted by AndyR
If Israel was serious about removing Hezbollah, from deeply entrenched civilian areas, it needs to have the backing of the Lebanese government, and that means they need to have an army sufficient to defend themselves. Airstrikes will never achieve the 'disarmament' of Hezbollah, and will exacerbate the ill feeling towards Israel that breeds this kind of behaviour.
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What are you wittering on about andy?

The Lebanese army should have disarmed Hizbullah years ago, they were incapable.

psycaholic · Jul 26, 2006

Originally posted by Joe
You completely misunderstood what I said, you have taken the events out of context.

The murder of 6 million Jews was unprovoked, the Jews did not chose to be the victims of Hitler’s ethnic cleansing- we were a defenceless people.

The Palestine/Israel situation is the complete opposite, both sides have chose to engage in a war over land - while the loss of life is tragic - it is not the same as genocide; both sides are armed, both sides have inflicted bitter blows upon the other, when compared to other wars that have raged for the same periods of time the death toll is miniscule.

While any loss of life is tragic, I personally think the low death toll in the Israeli/Arab conflict is admirable.
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when you look at it that way maybe you have a point but its still a waste of life that could be avoided if the people involved just thought of the future instead of the past, i my self look at things a little diffrently i'm a member of a race my self the HUMAN race i dont see colour creed or religion i see a person and it saddens me to see the world in such a state over stupid diffrences such as religion/land ownership, why do people feel the need to kill mame and destroy all in the name of somthing of mythical value we can scientifically prove how the world was created so why dose the world feel the need to destroy its self over somthing that not real! (my opinion) i dont begrudge peoples need to belive in an after life if thats what they need to comfort them selves from the fact you only have a short time on this planet and thats it , i live my life for me and my family and try to do whats best for them whilst im here i dont fell the need to prepare myself for somthing that is not going to happen when i die , after being in the bombing i didn't like others thank god and find religion but distance my self further and decide to live my life to the full seeing as you can never see whats 2 mins infront . one minute im shopping for a mothers day presant the next i'm lay on the floor with three smoldering peices of a cast iron waste bin stuck in my chest and back WHY? because of a conflict that had nothing to do with me or anything i have done ,this is the point of veiw that i look from joe i see the ordinary people on the street mourning their loved ones carrying their dead in the street and i feel their pain , i'm sorry if i have been a bit direct with my wording during this thread and if what i have said has upset you in any way belive me it was not my intention i just see thing a little diffrently from you .

forks · Jul 26, 2006

Originally posted by AndyR
The response of Israel to the kidnappings (if you call it a response, and not an excuse) has been disgraceful, though I lay a fair share of my blame at the door of the Americans.

The simplicity and arrogance of their 'we won't deal with rogue nations to encourage good behaviour' theory has left them isolated and diplomatically impotent, now they are unable to deal with Hamas, Syria, Iran or Hezbollah.

Their so-called 'war on terror' has given Israel carte blanche for their indisciminate and short-sighted military strikes against southern lebanon. Most reports suggest that vast majority of the casulaties are civilan. However, stuck here in central america I have had a lot of time to watch CNN, and it is a constant barrage of Israeli generals and ministers praising the 'surgical strikes' of their forces, with rather less reference to the phosphorous charred children seen on other channels. The one country with the influence to perhaps reign in this indiscriminate assault (as it used to, in fact) crippled by its own mottos and a PR offensive.

Their destruction of civilian infrastructure will further isolate, alientate and enrage the populace of Lebanon, and convince those in any doubt of the need for an armed militia such as Hezbollah, when their fledging democratic government/army stands by while their tourist infrastructure is destroyed. Fewer toursits -> less money -> worse conditions -> greater anger....

If Israel was serious about removing Hezbollah, from deeply entrenched civilian areas, it needs to have the backing of the Lebanese government, and that means they need to have an army sufficient to defend themselves. Airstrikes will never achieve the 'disarmament' of Hezbollah, and will exacerbate the ill feeling towards Israel that breeds this kind of behaviour.

For there to be progress in the Middle East, there must be a verifiable ceasefire, and concessions on the part of all sides, but especially Israel/ Members of Hamas have already suggested that if Israel withdraws to its 1967 lines they will support a ceasfire, and the hardliners calling for the destruction of israel would then find themselves increasingly isolated. At the same time, there will need to be a prisoner exchange, and an international force to oversee a demilitarised zone in Southern Lebanon, and around areas of Palestine. However, Israel must maintain sufficient military power to maintain deterrance.

The international community as well as Israel will need to make incentives ready to Leabnon and Palestine to comply with the ceasfire, and put in place the infrastructure that will lead to the economic freedom that will reduce suffering in these countries, and, therefore, ill feeling to Israel.

Above all, the Americans must make themselves available to negotiate with foreign democratically elected governments, even if their ideals differ from their own - a programme of incentives for these countries is similarly more likely to yield more positive results than their current standpoints.
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:clap: i'm with you on that one

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