middle east

thats the Hamas charter andy - even the most moderate of Hamas members agree to it... very moderate

The vast majority of Israeli's want a 2 state solution, we didn't hand back the Gaza Strip for light entertainment... However there are still serious border issues to be resolved before sovereignty can be handed back to the Palistinians.

how the fuck does Israel have the right to withold or give back sovereignty to the palestinians. It's their right. And it should not be up to Israel to decide if they should have it

Israel might have have withdrawn from Gaza but thats hardly the full story. They withdrew and pretty much locked the gates, denying all imports and exports, and began shelling the area pretty much from day one.

Again when you talk of Israel wanting a two state soloution this is hardly the whole picture. The two state Israeli plan is implicitly on Israel's terms which are frankly a disgrace. Even then there are plenty of influential people in the Israeli political establishment who believe in dumping the Palestinians in Jordan.

Re. Hamas, you reap what you sow, you treat the moderates with contempt, you'll get the extremists. Although i'm sure that suits Israel, gives them all the excuses they need to act as they wish.

ok so what land does Israel hand back?

what happens to jerusalem?

forks stop being a simplton - you're a smart bloke.

The first rockets fired were Qassam rockets.

It's a damn sight mght reasonable than the Palestinian solution!!!

HAHA which moderates did we treat with contempt?!?!?!

Please tell me you're not talking of the PLO.

Explain what you mean by the Palestinian soloution.

As much as Arafat was a waste of space, he was as much a terrorist as succesive Israeli governments.

it hands back the land it took by force in the first place

Jerusalem is claimed by so many only an international control solution can work there

and your constant advocacy of military force as a solutionto all this is smart?

an international control solution is a temporary fix though.

the PS is the total destruction of Israel... read the Hamas Charter.

Which Israeli government waged acts of terror in a similar light to Arafat?

So basically there is no dealing with the Palestinians?

ah Arafat.
remember when the solution was to get rid of Arafat.
He was the problem, the obstacle to peace.
ha!

Where did I say that?

You have a nasty habbit of putting words in my mouth, I stated that the Israeli 2 state proposal is a damn site better than the Palestinian 1 state solution.... Where in that sentence did I imply that israel should not talk to Hamas?

Are you suggesting he wasnt?

Your saying that the Palestinians want only to destroy Israel, you implicitly said the PALESTINIAN solution was to destroy Israel. I dont need to put words in your mouth.

I'd suggest Sharon, Netanyahu, Peres et. al. were equally to blame.

yes

How can you compare Arafat to the above? They may have civilian blood on their hands - but there is a difference between collateral damage and targeting civilians in terror campaigns?

what you proposed has been offered countless times and rejected or disrupted on every occassion by the Palestinians... Your point would be valid if it hadn't already been proposed and denied on numerous occassions.

For christ sake Joe, how can you keep using that one as an excuse for the wanton disregard of anyone's life who is not Israeli. Was Tom Hurndall collaterall damage? Susan Corrie? The refugees of the Sabra and Shatilla camps? The family recently killed on a beach in Gaza?

Israeli politicians are equally to blame as Arafat for the lack of peace for various reasons, has settlement building stopped? No. Has the occupation ended? No.

Were they deliberatly targeted on national television to attract media attention to the Israeli plight?!?!?

If you can't distinguish between acts of terror and casualties of war/conflict... then we are unable to further this discourse.