middle east

First of all this has nothing to do with media coverage, I have opened up a discussion on the morality of Amnesty International.

But to answer your question, you can't make such a naive statement. Media coverage should revolve around circumstances not death tolls.

In the UK over 100,000 people are killed every year by cigarette companies - but this doesn't warrant front-page stories as those that die have killed themselves.... Unless the circumstances are investigated a death toll is a tragic statistic which can be easily manipulated to suit a cause, this is precisely what AI have done.

Despite Hizbullah's best efforts to embed itself in populated civilian areas, Israel were able to keep the civilian death toll to a minimum; if we were to examine wars fought during the same period in Iraq, Sudan, Afghanistan and Algeria we would find much higher muslim-on-muslim death tolls.... Yet these death tolls receive a fraction of the critical attention from humanitarian groups and the media.

"Parties to an armed conflict are required to protect civilians and civilian objects by adopting a number of precautionary measures in preparing and carrying out their attacks. In addition, combatants must not place themselves or other military objectives within the civilian population in an attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations" - Amnesty

This was the only mention of human shields in the Hizbu'llah report, which reinforces how willing AI is to ignore injustice if its can assist them in erecting a platform from which they can attack Israels morality.

The Israel report also seems unable to differentiate between human casualties and infrastructure, Israel intentionally targeted bridges and roads as it would of been militarily negligent not to do so (this is common practise in war), but a humanitarian group cannot then link these strategically strikes with civilian causalities as the two are unrelated.

Cast your mind back 3 years to the Iraq invasion, electrical grids, water supplies, tv stations and transport networks were all completely annihilated, this is an obvious consequence of war.

However Israel are unique in the way they fight wars and try to inflict minimal long term damage; when Beirut airport was hit the IAF took out the runway but left planes and control towers in tact (allowing aircrafts to fly to safety), when Israel took out the Jiyeh Power Station they left the infrastructure in tact but took out the oil tanks, rather than taking out Lebanese TV stations (as you suggest) they targeted a terrorist station Al-Manar.

Israel fight the most humane wars known to man, yet despite the huge efforts to preserve human life and civilian infrastructure at a time when these entities are used as shields.... Israel still comes under heavy criticism from the bigoted media.

What a stupid argument, the morality of an operation cannot be judged on whether or not it was successful - if that were true those Jews that fought in the Warsaw uprising were immoral and the Nazi's were noble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbOlqG2arSo

Again, Israel weren't unique in the use of these weapons in built up civilian areas and they certainly weren't used to the extent they were in Iraq... You hold Israel accountable to actions that you permit other nations to perpetrate…. The standard anti-Zionist/Semitic spiel.

I didn't ignore your point I illustrated the double standard flaunted by left wing organisations like AI.

I'm sorry but you didn't give the issues a fraction of the attention you have given Israel, despite the fact massive numbers of Iraqi's are still dying on a daily basis.

Israel is one of the most noble nations on this planet; despite half a century of wars its enemies have suffered tiny casualties and despite constant invasion Israel has put forward countless peace proposals, I could give thousands of testaments to Israel character... Yet despite all this people like yourself single out Israel as some barbaric evil nation.

There is only one logical reason for this; antisemitism.

Willingly or unwillingly you have bought into the anti-semitic lie and have gone to huge lengths to dehumanize the Jewish movement/state of Israel.

I'd love for you to explain how I am racist....

if you don't like bombs in civilian areas perhaps you should be more vocal in your opposition to the Hizbu'llah militants that fire ballisitic missiles from civilian population centres.

Its insane to expect no civilian casualties in a warzone where one of the sides openly uses civilian shields!

of course I've supported Amnesty campaigns in the past, not everything they do is anti-Israeli - but I've never used their statistics as the basis of any argument.

Israel has been criticised since its existence, 100+ critical resolutions from the global community is a testament to the anti-semitism that seeps out of the gentile world (with the exception of America ).

The same media that was vociferously opposed to the creation of the state, was against Jewish immigration during world war 2 and has been critical of Israel in every war since its creation?

LOL the same television stations and papers that publish the learned protocols of elders of zion every year?

I don't need to supply reason, I can supply examples:

In 2002 the Palestinian spin doctors fabricated the Jenin massacre in which they claimed hundreds of Palestinian civilians had been massacred by evil Israeli forces... Amnesty International dived head first into the fiction and condemned Israel without bothering to thoroughly research the massacre... Post-Jenin we now know that the massacre never occurred and not only was Palestinian life preserved, but Israeli troops were sacrificed to save Palestinian lives!

In 2000 Amnesty International sponsored a "right to return rally", any Arab leader will tell you that the right to return is another way of presenting the expulsion of the Jews from Israel... A human rights organisation should not be supporting such political agenda's.

In 2001 Pierre Sane (Secretary General of Amnesty International) visited Palestine he was asked if he would be visiting Jewish victims of a recent conflict; He had no reply, he was then shown the PLO map of the Right of Return where the 531 Arab villages are "returned" to replace Israeli cities and was asked if he still supported the right to return; he replied that he did - because Amnesty supports the right of return of ALL populations who were dislocated by war... To which the quick witted journalist asked if that applied to the 3,000,000 Germans who were displaced 3 years before 650,000 (the highest UN estimate) Palestinian Arabs fled their homes.... and guess what; Sane gave no answer.

Amnesty International have a legacy of anti-semitic (or at the very least anti-zionist) politically driven policies, in order for a humanitarian organisation to remain impartial it must remain apolitical, for the moment it aligns itself with a long term political cause is the moment it loses credibility.

I brought the report to light to demonstrate the gross unbalance between the reports… The report in my opinion is a rushed reaction to the slamming of their initial report from organisations like the ADL.

Starvation?!?!? Palestinian Arabs have some of the highest standards of life in the Arab world, refuges in Palestinian camps have higher standard of life than refugees in Palestinian camps neighbouring states.

Israel is the only nation I can think of that pours millions of dollars into a “state” they’ve been locked in an eternal war with, this relentless assault on Israel is the modus operandi of the Palestinian cause…. Yet despite all of this Israel pours millions of aid into Palestine, builds infrastructure, provides their citizens with electricity, water and healthcare and is always seeking peace.

Claims?!??!

1967 – Land for peace was rejected by the Arabs as its acceptance would also give legitimacy to Israel.
1993 – Since the Oslo Accords Israel have been striving to meet the goals set out during the talks, the PA was formed (which governed education, police, health, etc.), areas like Gaza have been handed back, etc. Yet the Palestinians haven't given an inch - they're still launching attack after attack.
1998 - The Wye River Memorandum which was never implemented as the Arabs initiated the Al-Aqsa Intifada.
2000 - The Camp David proposition was rejected despite the fact 90% of the west bank, 100% of Gaza and East Jerusalem were offered to the Palestinians.
2001 – The Taba Summit was rejected despite Israel offering the pre-1967 borders (with minor adjustments to the west bank borders as permitted by resolution 242), the right to return and billions of dollars worth of compensation to Palestinian refugees (despite no Arab states offering compensation for the expelled Jewish refugees), Palestinian sovereignty over its airspace, etc.
2002 - Israel accepted working towards the Arab Peace Initiative as long as the Palestinians put an end to their terror attacks - Hamas responded with a suicide attack which they stated was to derail the peace process.

Typical of your mindset Andy – rather than looking at the historical record you take current affairs remove them from their context and rush to an ignorant conclusion.

Andy, can I ask why you devote so much of your time criticising Israel?

I am passionate about the state as I correlate its future with the security of my people, when someone attacks it they threaten the existence of my children, what is your concern? if your plight truly was a humanitarian cause then surely your efforts would be better focused on nations that practise genocide, torture, oppression, etc.

You still haven't suggested how else Israel can respond when rockets are fired from an apartment block....

*bangs head off wall*

The argument has nothing to do with the morality of Israel, when we're discussing the anti-Semitic nature of an organisation like the UN we do so by comparing their treatment of the Jews against their treating of other states.

China
Murdered over 35 million since the creation of Israel, runs concentration camps, has an oppressive government, has engaged in land grabs and ethnic cleansing... total critical resolution's -10

Sudan
Murdered over 2 million since the creation of Israel, has been ethnic cleansing minorities for the last 50 years... total critical resolution's -10

Congo
Murdered almost 4 million since the creation of Israel, parties have been creating child militias, ritual rapes, torture and murder... total critical resolution's 31

North Korea
Murdered almost 2 million since the creation of Israel, runs concentration camps, forced citizenship, mass oppression, mass genocide, torture, rape, political executions, etc.... total critical resolution's -15

Israel
Killed under 15,000 since it’s creation, not only is there no ethnic cleansing but aid, education, water, electricity, food, healthcare and industry are all provided for its enemies, despite constant invasions Israel are always pushing for peace, despite cries of injustice Palestinian/Israeli Arabs have a very high standard of life, despite cries of racism and genocide ethnic minorities are well represented in the state.... total critical resolution's 110+

This brief comparison between the worlds most murderous nations and Israel highlight the disproportionate global concern, in fact if we were to list genocidal nations with higher death tolls than Israel it would look something like this:

Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Argentina, Azerbaijan, Bosnia, Botswana, Brazil, Burma, Burundi, Cambodia, Central African Republic, Chad, Chilé, Colombia, Congo-Brazzaville, Croatia, Cuba, Democratic Republic of the Congo, East Timor, El Salvador, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Georgia, Guatemala, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Kenya, Laos, Lebanon, Liberia, Macedonia, Madagascar, Mexico, Morocco, Mozambique, Nepal, Nicaragua, Nigeria, North Korea, Pakistan, ParaguayPeoples Republic of China, Russia, Rwanda, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Somalia, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Syria, Tibet, Togo, USSR, Venezuela, Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Zimbabwe

Despite these 62 nations that have committed extreme human rights violations (we’re not talking cluster bombs used in a defensive war, we’re discussing the ritual rape of children, the industrial executions of ethnic minorities, mass expulsions and land grabs) Israel still manages to receive more UN resolutions than ANY other state.

This my friend is modern day anti-Semitism.

Even after the massacre was proven to be a fabrication AI were stating:

Unlawful killings violate the "right to life" laid down in Article 6 of the ICCPR. Amnesty International considers that some of these abuses of the right to life would amount to "willful killings" and "willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health" within the meaning of Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention dealing with grave breaches of the Convention; "grave breaches" of the Geneva Convention are war crimes.

This is not the statements of an unbiased organisation that made a mistake, this is an example of the extreme lengths an organisation like AI will go to attack the character of Israel.

You make light of my comments but Israeli government didn’t make light of the “intellectual anti-semitism” that exists within the BBC on the occasions they’ve accused the organisation of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism… There’s an interesting but amateur report here:

http://www.bbcwatch.co.uk/july04.html

Yet again the point shoots about a mile over your head, to accuse Israel of starving the Palestinian population is insane. Palestinian refugees have a higher standard of life than their brothers in Arab camps…. This has nothing to do with anyone’s right to exist – it’s to do with the mistreatment of those that fled their homes.

Bollocks, I’ve never read one thread from you on the child warfare in the Congo, the concentration camps in China, the dhimmi culture of Iran… If your cause truly were humanitarian your efforts would be divided between much eviler states than Israel… But these issues are of no concern to the modern day anti-Semite.

Even if we were to never speak of Israel again you’d be subject to the same biased information that helped mould your current mindset… I provide you with the means to extend your knowledge (as you do for me) – but the seeds of anti-Semitism were sewn a long time ago.

All Jews are concerned about humanitarian issues, at the heart of most humanitarian movements you’ll find jews (the civil rights movement in America is a great example of this), but Israel/Palestine is not a humanitarian cause; it’s a political cause.

The standard of life is high and the death tolls are low.

The huge global concern (which helped sculpt your mindset) is highly anti-Semitic, nothing else explains the disproportionate middle-eastern concern.

Nice post!!! Thats impressive

Cant be assed reading it all tho.....

Am sure you make a good point!

That's insane, you can't expect a military to disable it's abilities in the name of good sportsmanship :spangled:

Hizbu'llah initiated the war; Israel is fully justified in using the military to it's fullest abilities... If Cuba invaded America would you expect the US to respond with their cadet divisions?

While I personally would of prefered to see a ground invasion, most Israeli's would not - if they sent in troops straight away the Israeli death toll would of been much higher than the Lebanese death toll.... You can't expect that of an army that is fighting a defensive war.

Andy then put forward a viable alternative.... Ground troops would result in more Israeli deaths than Lebanese, so a more realistic alterntive would be needed.

If you (like the international community) is unable to come up with an alternative then you have no right to criticise Israel... The only other alterntive would be to sit back and enjoy the Hizbu'llah onslaught.

LOL they kidnap 2 soldiers, killed more, then fired a barrage of missiles into Israel!

You're blinded by your own bigotry.

Why should Israel comply to a law the rest of the world doesn't?

We've just established that Hizbu'llah use civilian facilities as military bases! How can you fight a war if you're unable to attack your enemy?

But this provides Hizbu'llah the oppertunity to smuggle out the kidnapped soldiers!!!!

Also required for the movement of arms and militants... Its standard practise in war Andy - show me modern war where this hasn't happened..... The only reason it's an issue this time round is because the jews are the ones doing it.

There was aid?

LMAO!!!! In that case we owe billions to the Iraqi's and Afghan, billions to the viatnamese, this is the most insane comment you've ever made!

Hizbu'llah start a war and you expect Israel to pay compensation!?!?!?!? When have the defenders ever paid out compensation to the aggressors?!?!?!?

Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie on Maj. Hess-von Kruedener's email.

"What that means is, in plain English, 'We've got Hezbollah fighters running around in our positions, taking our positions here and then using us for shields and then engaging the (Israeli Defence Forces)," he said.

The only possible purpose of your comment is an attempt to besmirch Israel, the UN observers weren't hit purposely, they were friendly fire! Your distortion of the truth to demonize the state of Israel is a standard tactic of the modern anti-Semite.

600 civilians?!?!?!?!?!

Did you pull that statistic out of your arse?

No Andy, I was naive several years ago... With age comes wisdom, I've engrossed myself in middle east conflict educating myself to a very high standard.

I used to believe the mujahideen & Hamas were freedom fighters, I used to think that the Arabs wanted peace, I used to believe that 9/11 was semi-justified.... I was an idiot.

I can tell you have, hence the hesitation in responding.

I gave you an Israeli statistic half way through the conflict!

It's impossible to say how many civilians lost their lives, the IDF have the Hizbu'llah death toll at 440+

Andy do you actually know what a launcher is?

Which is a tragic statistic, however the blame lands solely on the shoulders of Hizbu'llah militants that use those civilians as human shields.

a fly that levelled northern towns in Israel to the ground....

We're not talking Qassam rockets, we're talking Fajr- 3 missiles!