On the subject of media bias in the Middle East....

Both England and America do not have a legacy of Arab/Muslim invasions.

Since the creation of Israel there has been a unified call for its destruction from its neighbours.... Israel foreign policy is motivated by the states struggle to survive.... Occidental foreign policy is motivated by profit.

However these debates are getting tiresome, you seem to get more and more radical with every post you make... If it talks like an antisemite, walks like an antisemite and supports antisemites... then he's probably not a friend of the jews.

Few outside Israel/Judaism share your opinions.

Perhaps we're all wrong; my reading (and presumable theirs) suggests otherwise.

It would've been nice if you'd been able to supply some evidence that I'm a racist before levelling the accusation once more, but as you couldn't, I'm not particularly worried about anyone taking it seriously.

You're right to say it's getting tireseome though.

I've never encountered someone who will argue so constantly in the face of convinving, objective evidence to the contrary of their point.

Andy you vociferously protest about a nation of people you have little or no contact with, you consider invasions upon this nation justifiable and you're quick to brand this nation barbaric killers. You devote a large proportion of your life besmirching the name of the Jews; you claim for humanitarian reasons.... Despite the nation of Israel being one of the most noble nations of modern history in battle (civilian death tolls are kept to a minimum).

You're quick to throw around old fashioned antisemitic libels dressed up as modern day anti-zionism and whether this is out of naivity or choice - the outcome is the same.

Historically antisemites have taken elements of Judaism that disagreed with them to justify their hatred; Hitler and the 20th century nazi's based their jew hatred on racial impurity and created antisemitism, medievil europe blamed the jews for the death of christ and persecuted them accordingly, the soviets despised Jewish values and banned the religion.

Modern day antisemites hate jewish nationhoood.... antizionism and antisemitism are one and the same.

What evidence have you presented on the BBC not being antisemitic?

What evidence have you provided on the UN not being antisemitic?

Your opinions aren't evidence, schmuck.

:yawn:

I've said more times than I can remember that I support the existence of an Israeli state. However, I also want to see a free and autonomous Palesntinian state. You've also fallen foul of the laws of definition if you think Anti-Zionism and and Anti-Semitism are the same - Neuterei Karta are surely anti Zionistic without being anti Semitic? I am quite confident I am neither.

If you consider death tolls like the war with Hezbollah 'minimal', where you were more likely to die as a Lebanese civilian than a Hezbollah militant, then we are in fundamental and irretreivable disagreement. That said I take some comfort from the fact that such high profile racists as Kofi Annan, Amnesty international and most of Europe agree with me where as such high profile proponents of legal wars as George Bush, Tony Blair and, errr, Israel agree with you.

Being anti semitic is an easy charge to lay since Joe constantly conflates the jewish race, the jewish religion, and the state of Israel.
They are not the same.

No one can change the race they are born into.

You can choose, at least by the time you are 18, to follow a religion. or not

And Israel as a state could follow any number of policies, and to disagree with them is anti Israeli government policy, nothing more.

can either of you define a jew for me.

I don't see why this is relevant, as I haven't criticised either the Jewish religion, or those of the Jewish race.

All I have criticised is the Israeli government's foreign policy, and the IDF's strategy/tactics/competence.

well it's not the same as an Israeli

great answers

I still don't see why it's relevant to this debate....?

becuase you cannot define what is and isn't antisemitic without defining a jew.

OK, I'll go for....someone who either follows the Jewish religion or who considers themself a member of the Jewish race.

I've not directly criticised either.

The Jewish definition is "one who belongs to the nation of Israel".

Israel and Jewishness is one and the same.

Are Neuterei Karta anti-Semitic, anti-Zionist, both, or neither?

but that is 'the nation of israel' as a metaphor for that definition would have existed before the present state of israel?

antisemitic and antizionist.

self-loathing Jews has been a problem that has plagued Judaism we came into existence.

yes, but the creation of the state is part of the defintion.

Every year the Jews in diaspora would say "next year in Jerusalem", Zionism has always been a part of Judaism - we were always going to return home... the question was always when.

You can't oppose zionism without opposing judaism.

so I take it from that that anti zionism =anti semetism, anti Israeli foreign policy = anti semitism, anti west bank settlements = anti semetism, anti lebanon war = anti semetism, and so that those Israeli's who oppose the present Israeli government are anti semites( but presumably they will become ok and the present government will become anti semitic when there is a change of government)

it's a nonsense.